My personal response to Greg Laurie’s post, “Some Thoughts on Drinking in This Holiday Season”
by Sam Gaw, Editor of ChristianHeadlines.com
On December 3rd, Greg Laurie posted a new blog post named “Some Thoughts on Drinking in This Holiday Season”.
Here at Christian Headlines, we linked to the new blog post as well as an article about the blog post. But after much thought and prayer, I thought I needed to add my personal comment about Greg’s post. While we love Greg and think he is a great Christian leader, there are times that Christians can disagree.
Here is my response to the post:
Greg,
I usually love your stuff but must disagree with you on this one!!
While I could start by saying you seem to say, ‘do as John the Baptist did over Jesus’, I will skip that part. While I believe this might be the biggest issue, it could look petty since you never actually said it but only seem to refer to as such.
My biggest problem is that you leave out that John the Baptist was a Nazirite (like Samson). So, yes, a Nazirite would never drink wine or strong drink BUT you fail to mention the other parts of that. So, if we use John the Baptist as your main example, we must:
(1) abstain from ALL things from the vine (grapes, wine vinegar, raisins, and vinegar distilled from such substances. But why? Because they believed the fruit that Satan used in the garden was actually grapes – so NOTHING from the vine!)
(2) Refrain from cutting the hair on one’s head (even though a permanent Nazirite could cut their hair once a year if bothersome)
(3) Stay away from dead people.
SO, if we follow Greg’s version of this, we also must take the vow of the Nazirite and not partake of jelly and jam and vinegar and grow our hair out.
I will agree that if you don’t drink you won’t get drunk. But even the ’cause a brother to stumble’ part is taken out of context…if you read on, you will see that is a one-time deal and there must be actions taken to clarify and talk through the issue (iron-sharpens-iron). The whole stumbling thing has been used against true Christians so others church-goers can have their way too many times!! It is time to really learn what that says and how to react to it.
The only way to get around the drinking part is to say that the wine Jesus made was NON-alcoholic (or at least barely had any alcohol or even that it was grape juice like the IFB churches believe). That is nonsense to the highest degree! First, there were words in each language for grape juice. Second, that means you haven’t seen the grapes from Israel…they are bigger and better than most places (which means more sugar – which indeed means more alcohol, not less). Third, you are changing the Bible and Jesus’s first miracle for your own want and desire…shame on you!! Fourth, you forget all the other positive references there are in the Bible about wine…new wine/old wineskin. Fifth, wine was used in communions in the Bible (Paul got mad and told the people stop getting drunk on it).
I could go on and on but hopefully I made a point here. You must take the Bible in true reference and cannot just piece together your wants and desires from it. And, even though I really like Greg, you have to take EVERYTHING from EVERYBODY (no matter how educated or popular) and read the Bible for yourself!
I actually don’t drink but just because I don’t, it doesn’t mean that others shouldn’t. I know some that are healthier because of a glass of wine but I also know others that can’t even have a drop or they would become an alcoholic instantly. But isn’t that everything? We are all sinners. Some can handle themselves when a pretty girl says “Hi” to them and for others it would start them down a road of adultery. Some can control their eating while others can’t. Some can rise to become a leader while others would be so boastful and prideful that they would fall.
As Christians, maybe we need to relax on the demands that others-do-it-like-me syndrome! I love it when someone yells at me and questions my Christianity because I might prefer more contemporary music in worship. They usually say that I want my preference and that’s wrong…but isn’t preferring only hymns a preference? They don’t even stop to listen that I do actually like hymns rather than them hating new songs.
I digress. Just be careful not to twist scripture to your own liking. And if you have the thought that I just caused the next drunk-driving accident because of my personal response to Greg’s post…maybe you should stop living in the extremes!
Below is Greg’s post:
Is it acceptable for a Christian to drink?
The Bible tells us the story of John the Baptist,who was set apart by God from the time he was in his mother’s womb. In Luke 1:15, the angel said of John, “He will be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink. He will also be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother’s womb” (NKJV).
John gives us a good model for life: he drank neither wine nor strong drink. Personally, I don’t drink at all. That is due, to some degree, to coming from an alcoholic home and seeing the devastation that drinking can bring.
I can’t think of a single good thing that comes from drinking, but I can think of many bad things that come from it: broken homes, violence, accidents, people killed on the road by drunk drivers, addiction, destroying your health . . . the list goes on.
Drinking will never make anything better, only worse. Every illustration of drunkenness in the Bible is a disaster:
– Noah became drunk, and in his nakedness, he acted shamelessly.
– Lot became drunk and his daughters committed incest with him.
– Belshazzar, in Daniel 5, had a drunken feast and worshipped his false gods. He lost his kingdom that night.
– Many a kingdom, family, career, ministry, and life have been lost through drinking.
“But I have the liberty to drink, Greg!” some would say. I would not completely dispute that. I personally drink as much as I want to, but I don’t want to drink!
As Paul told the Corinthian believers, “‘I have the right to do anything,’ you say—but not everything is beneficial. ‘I have the right to do anything’—but I will not be mastered by anything” (1 Corinthians 6:12 NIV). I don’t want to be under the power of anyone or anything but Jesus Christ!
Here’s a revolutionary thought: If you don’t drink, you will never get drunk. If you do drink, you may get drunk. Is it worth the risk?
But here’s another question for you: Could your so-called liberty ever cause another believer to stumble in their faith? 1 Corinthians 8:9 says, “Be careful, however, that the exercise of your rights does not
become a stumbling block to the weak.”
John never touched alcohol, but was instead “filled with the Spirit.” The Bible says, “Don’t be drunk with wine, because that will ruin your life. Instead, be filled with the Holy Spirit” (Ephesians 5:18 NLT).
It’s better to be filled with the Spirit than with the spirits.
FULL POST HERE: “Some Thoughts on Drinking in This Holiday Season”.
Sam Gaw is the publisher and editor of ChristianHeadlines.com. He also owns Flashpoint Media, Inc. He started and ran Indiana Christian News, Illinois Christian News, and Florida Christian News before selling them in 2006. He has since produced a few movies & documentaries, as well as a family travel TV show. Sam has been a deacon and a Sunday School teacher. Flashpoint Media, Inc took over ChristianHeadlines.com in 2011 from Barry Bowen, who started ChristianHeadlines in 2001.
Taylor wrote:
“So, I have a question I would like to throw out there and hear responses to. I have seen where comments have regarded to wine. I do not see where it says they drank beer, whiskey, vodka and other alcoholic beverages. I only see wine mentioned. Why is it people take it as they can drink any alcoholic beverage? If you are going to go by the Word should it only be limited to wine? I think some people use this as an excuse to drink whatever they want.”
i respond: in Deuteronomy 14, we read this
Deuteronomy 14:22-27
English Standard Version (ESV)
22 “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23 And before the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.
the phrase “strong drink” in verse 26 is the Hebrew word “shekar,” which probably means a form of beer. although grapes are a much more plentiful crop in Israel than grain, from which most beer is made, nonetheless, the people could drink other alcoholic beverages besides wine, as seen here. and since the issue at hand is beverage alcohol, and not specifically wine, it stands to reason that we should either allow or forbid beverage alcohol in any form
Taylor wrote:
“I had a friend tell me once, “If you wouldn’t say it, do it, smoke it or drink it in front of the church, then you probably shouldn’t be doing it.””
as the Deuteronomy 14 passage points out, the people were commanded to drink the wine or strong drink (if it were their preferred beverage) BEFORE the Lord, as part of a festival of thanks to God for His provision of crops and livestock. they were to take TITHE money and use it to buy these things. in other words, they were doing it in the fellowship of the covenant community. they were doing it in front of the church.
Taylor wrote:
“But, quite frankly there is a lost and dying world out there. Shouldn’t we be worried about reaching people for Christ than what we should or should not drink?
We need to focus on the majors instead of the minors.”
two thoughts here: Sam is simply responding to Greg’s column. second, Bible teachers are responsible to teach the WHOLE council of God, including what He says concerning the use and abuse of His good gifts. as Sam already pointed out, and i seconded, Greg’s column was a distorted and incomplete presentation of what the Bible teaches concerning the use and abuse of beverage alcohol. while evangelism should be a vital part of our message, we cannot ignore what the Bible says about any issue it addresses.
Free04 wrote:
“The Infamous Christian excuse: ‘We are all sinners’. Ever heard that we can be made righteous in Christ, the term Saint? Easy believism will send more people to hell than anything else.”
what this has to do with the question at hand is beyond me.
Free04 wrote:
” All things in moderation? Really, Ok how about a little porn in moderation, a little lying, a little adultry, a little murder in moderation…you get the point. I guess it would be ok for a proclaimed Christian to do these things, but a Christian?”
this is absurd. apparently Free04 doesn’t know what the Bible says in Psalm 104:
Psalm 104:14-15
English Standard Version (ESV)
14 You cause the grass to grow for the livestock
and plants for man to cultivate,
that he may bring forth food from the earth
15 and wine to gladden the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine
and bread to strengthen man’s heart.
the Bible condemns drunkenness, but not drinking, just as it does lust and “adultry” and lying and so fort. but to link beverage alcohol with those things is to cast aspersions on God: Free04 needs to repent here, and reread 1 Timothy 4:1-4
1 Timothy 4:1-4
English Standard Version (ESV)
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,
One question to think about and be honest with yourself:
If you had the opportunity to sit at a table with The Almighty God, The Creator of all things, would you have a drink or two at that table?
actually, Free04, yes. we see this in Deuteronomy 14:
Deuteronomy 14:22-27
English Standard Version (ESV)
22 “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23 And before the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.
the people of Israel were encouraged to drink wine or strong drink (Hebrew: shekar, probably beer) BEFORE God and rejoice.
and i’m guessing that Free04 isn’t familiar with Isaiah 25:6:
Isaiah 25:6
English Standard Version (ESV)
6 On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples
a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine,
of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.
there is no such thing as “well-aged” grape juice. God Himself is going to serve wine at this great feast. so, not only would i have a drink or two at the table with God Almighty, He is going to be the one serving the wine.
the ignorance of the average Christian concerning the Bible’s teaching on beverage alcohol reflects a stubborn embrace of tradition, and demonstrates the poor teaching too many have received. i rarely drink wine outside of the Lord’s Supper, but i can’t stand to see the Bible twisted.
Jerry wrote:
“As a born again believer in Jesus Christ, I am to be controlled by the Holy Spirit, not under the influence of alcohol. At what point does someone come under alcohol’s influence? Is it 4.2 ounces of wine or 10.1 ounces of beer or two fingers of scotch? ”
my response: at what point is too much food too much? can a husband and wife have too much sex? what about recreation?
to ask the question about too much is to recognize the potential for abuse. any of God’s good gifts can be abused, but all can be enjoyed. to condemn a good gift of God simply because some can and do abuse it is fallacious, and against Scripture:
1 Timothy 4:1-4
English Standard Version (ESV)
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, 2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, 3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,
i am NOT accusing Greg of departing from the faith or teaching doctrines of demons: i am simply citing Scripture that says that it is wrong to teach abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving. wine certainly falls in that category. we see this clearly from Deuteronomy 14:
Deuteronomy 14:22-27
English Standard Version (ESV)
22 “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23 And before the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the Lord your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the Lord your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the Lord your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27 And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.
look again at verse 26: the Israelite could take his tithe money and spend it on wine or strong drink IF HE WISHED and drink it in the presence of God as part of a celebration of God’s goodness.
or take Psalm 104:
Psalm 104:14-15
English Standard Version (ESV)
14 You cause the grass to grow for the livestock
and plants for man to cultivate,
that he may bring forth food from the earth
15 and wine to gladden the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart.
as sam already pointed out, the hebrew language has words for both grape juice and wine, just as we do in english. had david wanted to say “grape juice,” he could have done so.
back to your original question, jerry: when do each of us come under the influence? that is something each of us must determine. in the case of beverage alcohol, it depends on body weight, metabolism, stomach contents at the time of the ingestion of the alcohol, etc. in other words, it is a case-by-case question, and each person should know his or her own limits. again, we could ask the same question concerning food: why is there such a term as gluttony unless there is such a thing as eating too much? we need to eat to live, but we shouldn’t eat more than we need. how much is too much? three pieces of fried chicken? four? five? as a registered nurse of 26 years, i have seen many people under the control of food, and they paid dearly for their addiction in terms of heart disease or diabetes or such.
still, i don’t condemn the substance, because the substance is neutral. the abuse of the substance is the problem, not the use.
does that answer your question, jerry?
Sam,
A superb response, brother. You said what needed to be said, graciously and firmly. A Bible teacher like Greg Laurie is responsible to teach the WHOLE council of the word of God, not just the parts he prefers. Teachers will be held to a higher standard (James 3:1).
As a born again believer in Jesus Christ, I am to be controlled by the Holy Spirit, not under the influence of alcohol. At what point does someone come under alcohol’s influence? Is it 4.2 ounces of wine or 10.1 ounces of beer or two fingers of scotch? Why partake in something that increases the odds of quenching the power of God in my life? Isn’t our war against the flesh already difficult enough without adding alcohol to the mix?
Greg is correct in stating, “I can’t think of a single good thing that comes from drinking, but I can think of many bad things that come from it: broken homes, violence, accidents, people killed on the road by drunk drivers, addiction, destroying your health . . . the list goes on.” People say, “I can handle it,” or “I know my limit.” Why even risk the possibility? Again, Greg’s point is solid, “If you don’t drink, you will never get drunk. If you do drink, you may get drunk.”
These are the reasons I no longer drink. Maybe someone will read this and see that a desire to drink puts us in peril of yielding control of our mind to the ruler of this world, rather than to the King of kings.
I feel you have over reacted. Greg did not infer – that John the Baptist teaching was more correct than Jesus – he only referred to it in it’s context and used it as a “point” for suggesting that it be a “model” – he did not make into what your infer – if he did than your thoughts are along the same lines.
Well said! It’s ok to have an respectful iron sharpens iron conversation. In fact, the Body needs to have a few more of these conversations. PS LOVE Christianheadlines.com – I use it almost every day!
Sam, this was spot on. I will rarely drink myself, but I’m disgusted by how so many Christians demonize each other and say that abstaining from alcohol means they’re more holy or sanctified. I guess they think they’re holier than Jesus!
It is true that the word “yayin” in Greek could mean an alcoholic or non-alcoholic drink, but I can’t find a single verse in the New Testament where it makes more sense to translate it as a non-alcoholic wine. And, of course, alcoholic wine in the Old Testament was clearly stated to be a gift from God.
Hi Sam, thanks for your responce, I think it was spot on. I have previously counselled alcholics who can’t comprehend how I could drink one drink and leave it at that, but guess what, I can. I’m british, and was amazed how how vilified drinking was in the US, yet so many were happy to smoke, which in turn is very frowned upon in the UK.
I only hope people can learn to live by the Spirit. This mean he will gives us self-control and convict when we move into any area of sin. We should be wise, and if you can’t handle it or are with people who will stumble, then don’t drink out of love for others and God. But we don’t need to be pharisees, I recall Jesus didn’t like them too much
The bible says “wine is a mocker strong drink is raging whoever is fooled by this is not wise.” Why are Christians so immature as to talk about right or wrong, or whether something is sin and not ask the mature responsible question. Is it wise?
The Infamous Christian excuse: “We are all sinners”. Ever heard that we can be made righteous in Christ, the term Saint? Easy believism will send more people to hell than anything else. All things in moderation? Really, Ok how about a little porn in moderation, a little lying, a little adultry, a little murder in moderation…you get the point. I guess it would be ok for a proclaimed Christian to do these things, but a Christian?
One question to think about and be honest with yourself:
If you had the opportunity to sit at a table with The Almighty God, The Creator of all things, would you have a drink or two at that table?
Just a little food for thought folks.
Have a blessed day!!!!!
I don’t drink because I think it tastes gross; yet I will respond: the wedding at Cana.
Ridiculously over reactive response. Specially your call to Greg to “be careful not to twist scripture to your own liking”!!! Your response is full of inferences and presumptions. You seem to have got upset with someone else’s post or teaching and jumped on Greg to vent your feelings ??
I can’t even understand why you took the time Sam to even correspond. Pastor Greg said absolutely nothing incorrect but only the truth about Christians drinking. You make it sound like he is approving Christians to drink……… And yes, he is an awesome Christian leader!
When you read Greg’s biography I think all this makes a lot more sense. He’s in a denomination that runs the drug and alcohol addiction rehab program that has had some of the best recidivism rates anywhere. Some of these guys are even pastors now. Having been in mainline churches for 37 years and drinking in moderation, I have been in one of their churches now 6 months and have reconsidered the importance of my public liberty to drink in light of the rehab program in my church. Christ is coming soon and the drinking momentum in the conservative evangelical church is disturbing in light of the sobriety requisite for a close walk with the Holy Spirit. Bottom line, If I’m more excited about my right to drink than about my love for Jesus and His kingdom, it’s time to lay it aside for awhile, and possibly for good. Not worth the cost. Way overrated
So, I have a question I would like to throw out there and hear responses to. I have seen where comments have regarded to wine. I do not see where it says they drank beer, whiskey, vodka and other alcoholic beverages. I only see wine mentioned. Why is it people take it as they can drink any alcoholic beverage? If you are going to go by the Word should it only be limited to wine? I think some people use this as an excuse to drink whatever they want.
I had a friend tell me once, “If you wouldn’t say it, do it, smoke it or drink it in front of the church, then you probably shouldn’t be doing it.”
But, quite frankly there is a lost and dying world out there. Shouldn’t we be worried about reaching people for Christ than what we should or should not drink?
We need to focus on the majors instead of the minors.
Where did you find that the Nazarites couldn’t eat grapes because the Jews believed that was the “fruit” in the Garden? I’ve read that they thought it symbolized worldliness, but I can’t seem to find any reference to the Garden anywhere…
I believe in this case it is more harmful to put Christians under a “law” concerning the use of wine and other strong drink. The Bible only condemns drunkeness, so it seems that we are granted some lattitude, even under the law. Wouldn’t it be better to encourage Christians to be led by the Spirit, instead of putting them back upder a “law”? Will Christians make mistakes? Probably. Will the Lord in His mercy rescue them out of their troubles? Don’t look now, but He already has! Will Christians learn to hear the voice of the Spirit and be led by Him? Yes, if their leaders stop trying to bring them back “under the law”.
Very well thought out and well written. However, much of what you wrote is simply expanding on things you admit Greg Laurie never even wrote, almost like you’re trying to find a reason to find fault in what he says. Your passion and long-winded would seem to indicate a little too much love for the booze.
An excellent exegesis on the Biblical subject of grapes, wine and their use.
What is especially refreshing conveying a factual understanding of the culture and doing so in context.
Misuse of scripture should never be accepted or encouraged, for this reason many other problems exist today inside the Church
I also do not encourage people to drink and I advise strongly against the culture of drinking and drunkenness, but proper use of scripture must come first.
Thank you Sam for your excellent work.
Martin, sorry about that. Thanks for the question. I am the one who wrote it. I have now added information about myself to the post.
I have not added too much about me on the site. We are getting ready to revamp the main site (www.christianheadlines.com) and this blog part.
So, what did you think about the response?
In HIM,
Sam Gaw
Editor
ChristianHeadlines.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/samgaw
Awesome, finally ~ the most honest Biblically-based comments on drinking I’ve read and I’ve read a LOT because of my love for the Lord and a negative family history of drinking. The Holy Spirit has dealt with me on my particular call to obedience to not drink. I know many solid Believers who drink alcohol and are not controlled by it and do not get drunk. It is used appropriately. And there ARE good things that come from it, such as cardiovascular health. All in moderation, all in moderation–and if that’s a challenge then you’d do well to leave it alone. The Holy spirit will guide you through this if you let Him. An excellent Christ-centered book is FREEDOM FROM ADDICTION by Neil T. Anderson.
Excuse me, but who are you? I see this is your “first” “personal response,” but I can’t seem to find any ID for you. Bob addresses you as Sam and there’s an ID for samgaw but I can’t for the life of me find out whose opinion this is.
Sam,
Finally someone gets it. You should write more of these. Way to go.